A mutual friend introduced Desiree Fixler and me to each other soon after her uncovering of the staggering amount of ESG fund greenwashing by German asset manager DWS. We’ve stayed in touch. We’ve also appeared at some public events together, including the Oxford Sustainable Finance Summit, the City & Financial Redefining ESG Best Practice conference, and a MaRS Climate Impact conference. Ms. Fixler has made other public appearances such as this ECEC 2022 interview with Thomas Knick, an interview with Magdalena Senn at Finanzewende, and an interview with Marta Ra at the 2021 Women in Sustainable Finance Summit.
DWS reacted in the typical corporate way to a whistleblower by trying to spin its own story that was far from the facts. After only being on the job for eight months Fixler was fired in March of 2021 under the claim of incompetence, and they leaked a story to the press. Yet, as often happens, Ms. Fixler has prevailed. DWS reduced by 75 percent the amount of assets it claimed to be ESG, eliminated its deeply flawed ESG framework, and is now more transparent ESG disclosures. DWS was also raided by the German federal police. But as also often happens, this has come at a great personal price to her. Much has happened over the past two years regarding the situation at DWS and ESG investing in general. I decided it was a good time to sit down for an interview with Ms. Fixler. I wanted to learn what she had learned and get any advice she has for future whistleblowers.
Desiree Fixler
Eccles: Well, Desiree, it certainly has been an interesting couple of years in the ESG investing world, huh? To pat ourselves on the back, I think our piece “The Seven Principles Of ESG Investing” is being validated as we see regulators from the UK’s Financial Conduct Authority (FCA), the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), and the International Organization of Securities Commissions (IOSCO) come out with guidance on the labeling of ESG funds. We’re also seeing the rather bizarre ESG Culture War that has erupted in the U.S. But, if it’s okay with you, I want to talk about something else.
Fixler: Bob, I know you well enough by now to just roll with it so go ahead and ask about whatever you want!
Eccles: Thanks, Desiree. And, hard as it is for me, I’ll try to stay focused! Here’s what I want to talk about today—your experience as a whistleblower. I know it’s been painful, but okay if we dig into what the last couple of years have been like for you?
Fixler: Sure, Bob. I mean, I can’t say I’m “happy” to talk about this because it hasn’t been a happy experience. But I’ve learned a lot and I’m happy to share that with you in hopes it can be helpful to other women and men who become whistleblowers as well. They play an important role in the finance industry and more generally. I think it’s an underappreciated role. And the people who do this have no idea what they’re getting themselves into. That certainly was the case for me.
Eccles: I really appreciate this. But before we focus on what it means to be a whistleblower, can you please briefly recap what happened to help refresh the memories of our readers?
Fixler: There’s a lot to tell but I’ll try to be brief. DWS hired me in June 2020 to be their Group Sustainability Officer. It quickly became apparent to me that there was a big gap between their public ESG claims and the reality of their ESG efforts. I tried hard to raise this internally with my boss, CEO Asoka Woehrmann, to the Management Board, and eventually the Supervisory Board. I explained that a number of their ESG statements in the Annual Report and other public releases were not only unsubstantiated but were seriously exaggerated, misleading, and just wrong.
Eccles: Sounds like you worked very hard to raise this through the proper internal processes. How did that go?
Fixler: Not well at all. They not only ignored me but actually made fun of the American strict regulatory compliance culture. Then it got ugly. They basically fired me and leaked a story to Bloomberg in an attempt to control the narrative.
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Eccles: You know I’m no big fan of Deutsche Bank (DB) and DWS so the cynic in me isn’t surprised given the cultures of these organizations. Did this ploy of theirs work?
Fixler: Not for very long. Other newspapers started digging into the story and I made myself available to the press. Pretty soon it was clear that DWS had a big problem on their hands. Their strategy of retaliation and refutation backfired, all of their own creation. While the U.S. and German authorities are still investing the firm, I think we can all agree that DWS colossally failed with their media and crisis management strategy.
Eccles: What’s the current state of play?
Fixler: After the CEO Asoka Woehrmann was ousted following the federal police raid, a number of other senior executives involved left as well. COO Mark Cullen, CIO Stefan Kreuzkamp, Head of Communications Adib Sisani, and other ESG and strategy folks have been either demoted or have left. It’s also been reported Karl von Rohr, the Chairman of the Supervisory Board of DWS, is likely to leave. I think that pretty much says it all.
Eccles: Yeah, I’d say it does so let’s move on. What are you doing now?
Fixler: I guess you could say I’m now having a portfolio career. I get paid-for speeches, do some consulting work, I Chair Venture ESG (an NGO driving the adoption of ESG principles in the venture capital industry), I’m a member of the FCA’s ESG Advisory Committee, I’m a member of the CFA Institute’s ESG Committee, and I’m a member of the LSE Ventures Advisory Board.
Eccles: Sounds like a great portfolio and one that’s keeping you very busy! I’m pleased to see this. I guess you didn’t want another corporate job?
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Fixler: Actually, that’s not true at all and that’s when I started learning the consequences of being a whistleblower. You wouldn’t believe the number of calls I received from senior execs in the finance industry and the number of offers I had to give talks at such firms. But they wanted my time and advice for free. I was naïve enough to agree to that in the beginning, thinking it would help me find a job. Didn’t work out that way.
Eccles: Hmmm. That’s disappointing to hear. Why do you think that was—and sounds like still is—the case?
Fixler: To a much lesser degree now. When the story first broke, I think people wanted to learn how to avoid being the next DWS or avoid being whistle blown by someone in their organization and maybe how to deal with such a situation if it happened. But they were afraid of hiring me. Like what if they also aren’t completely buttoned down on their ESG claims? Or they’re doing business with Deutsche Bank, DWS, and friends of theirs and don’t want to get on their wrong side? But since DWS hugely revised downward their ESG claims in their last annual report and I embraced advisory work, companies have been a lot more comfortable hiring me in that consultant capacity to help them evolve their ESG investing platform or to tackle greenwashing, usually preemptively.
Eccles: I see what you mean but there’s also the case of a firm saying, “Hey, look, we hired Desiree, so you know we’re the real deal!”
Fixler: Bob, that’s your idealism slipping out. The world just doesn’t work that way. Once a whistleblower you carry the baggage of that for the rest of your life. You get celebrated in the press and people want to talk to you, but they damn sure don’t want to hire you permanently into a regular way corporate role. You have to reskill and reinvent yourself professionally. I had to embrace what got me fired and make a business out of that. I had to improve myself at public speaking, writing, and using social media. I had to promote myself with a focused cause—tackling greenwashing.
Eccles: There was obviously no way you could have known this when you did what you did. But if you had a crystal ball on your future, would you still have called out the ESG greenwashing at DWS?
Fixler: Absolutely, yes. My personal and professional integrity and reputation were at stake. I’m FINRA trained and learned a thing or two from having a front row seat in the run up to the Great Financial Crisis. To be honest, I did what I did because I didn't want to get in trouble with the regulators and authorities and I didn't want the firm to get in trouble. I was also really irritated with all the greenwashing happening across the industry, not just at DWS. I thought it was time to shine the spotlight on a lot of corporate ESG BS.
Eccles: Fair enough and good for you. But is there anything you would have done differently once you became a whistleblower?
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Fixler: I’m not sure I could have done anything differently. It is a hugely asymmetrical situation between the whistleblower and the company. The whistleblower is just one person with near zero financial resources, no experience in the role they have cast themselves into, and no experience in dealing with the press. The company, on the other hand, has unlimited resources at their disposal in terms of inside PR people and lawyers, and external ones on speed dial who, for a living, help protect the company from the claims being made. If that means maligning, belittling, and threatening the whistleblower to get their fees, so be it.
Eccles: Sounds pretty ugly and I completely get your point about the unlevel playing field. But given this reality, what should the whistleblower do?
Fixler: A few things. Make sure you’re prepared to accept the fact that your professional and probably personal life is changed forever. Remind yourself, as Monica Lewinsky said during her public case, that “you will get through this.” But you will have to reinvent yourself afterwards. Inspire and charge yourself by reading about the many other whistleblowers such as Gretchen Carlson, Susan Fowler (now Susan Rigetti), and Tyler Schultz who have outed and stopped insane corporate misconduct and consumer and employee abuse and harm. And then go on offense. Be bold, unleash the truth, and take back your narrative. Assume the worst on the part of the company. Which is really crazy considering many whistleblowers do what they do to protect the firm from reputational ruin and regulatory penalties. They’re doing a corporate and public service.
Eccles: Your last point is indeed ironic. I’m no expert on whistleblowers but it seems to me that what triggers them to act are deep cultural problems in a company that will eventually come to the surface. The circumstances in which the whistle gets blown are particular. If companies were smart, they’d look for ways to facilitate internal whistleblowing so they can be made aware of problems they either don’t know about or just want to ignore. Is that a naïve idea?
Fixler: No, it’s not, and some companies and C-suites do just that. But unfortunately, not all companies are run by competent folks who recognize an opportunity to deal with company issues to get to a better place. So I think it’s better to think about how to support whistleblowers and what legislation, regulations, and private platforms would be helpful.
Eccles: Like what?
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Fixler: Like supportive legislation such as the recent bill Congress passed with bipartisan support that eliminates forced arbitration in sexual harassment lawsuits. The trigger for this was Fox News journalist Gretchen Carlson’s lawsuit against Fox News founder and CEO Roger Ailes. Carlson inspired and campaigned for this bill. That’s real impact!
Eccles: Anything else going on in the policy domain?
Fixler: Yes, the EU Whistleblower Directive is finally being implemented by many of the member states. I often wonder if DB and DWS would have acted differently if Germany had adopted the law at the time of my whistleblowing. But then again there’s a difference between having a policy and actually complying with it. That’s why I’m focused on working with organizations in the EU and in Germany to raise attention around this important issue of whistleblower protection. As well as championing a real speak-up culture in the corporate world more generally.
Eccles: All this makes sense to me, but in the meantime there is the current reality. What can a whistleblower do for her or his self?
Fixler: The key thing here is that you need a holistic strategy. Winning a whistle blowing campaign requires legal, communications, regulatory awareness, PR, and social media capabilities. You need to identify a good lawyer, who might fully or partially work on contingency. You need to understand your rights and if you can file for whistleblower protection with the SEC or Department of Labor, for example. In some cases, your employer or former employer may have to pick up some of the legal fees. You need to access influential journalists and get them to dig into what’s really going on. You need help with external communication on social media and with the press in general. And keep in mind that each specialist is looking at it through their own narrow lens, so you have to manage and coordinate everything.
Eccles: Sounds like you have to be your own quarterback.
Fixler: Poor analogy, Bob. Football is a game with rules, and you see lots of good sportsmanship on the field after even the most competitive games. Whistle blowing isn’t a game. It’s more like a war. You have to be your own general. You need a strategy. You need to allocate limited financial and social capital resources. You have limited time, both to spend on the campaign and before you start making a living again. The company has virtually infinite time in two ways. It can have as many people as they want spend time working against you. And it can wait you out. You will starve to death long before the company feels any real hunger pains.
Eccles: You’ve explained what a whistle blower needs to do, and you’re pointed out his or her resource limitations, but you haven’t explained how to solve that problem.
Fixler: Fair point. I think there’s a real market for supporting whistleblowers and organizations can be created to do that. This is something I’m thinking about very hard right now. Such an organization could be a safe harbor platform providing the holistic strategy, regulatory awareness, access to legal, PR and media help, as well as emotional and mental health support. Effectively a clearinghouse for information with all the navigation tools as well as a ground for mediation. I know there are boutique crisis management firms, and this could be a specialized niche that works for the whistleblower, but also can work with the company to manage whistleblower complaints in a professional and constructive way and any respective fall-out.
Eccles: I’m excited about these ideas. Let me know if I can help.
Fixler: I appreciate that. One thing for sure is that you’re always in the mix and know a lot of people across a wide range of types!
Eccles: Let’s continue this conversation over dinner the next time I’m in London. My treat to thank you for your courage, your work, and taking the time to do this interview.
Fixler: Thanks, Bob, that would be great but we may have to wait until February when my dry January stint is over. DWS is now a distant memory. What I want to do now is find ways to give people like me the resources they need to fulfill their role. It’s a vital one to maintain corporate and investor accountability.
